Fairness at Work Episode #8: Are Your Pay Policies Working Against You?

Webinar recording

Aired February 16, 2021


Katie Bardaro: Thank you to those of us who have joined us for our eighth episode of our fairness at work series we'll be getting started in just about a minute.


Katie Bardaro: Good morning, good afternoon, thank you to all who have joined us this is our eighth episode of our fairness at work series which is a webinar series where we can be thought leaders to discuss topics related to pay equity.


Katie Bardaro: Now, as we all know, fairness is more than just pay equity it's about paying your employees, for what you say you pay them for, which is why today we're talking about pay policies and how they might work against you when bringing fairness to work.


Katie Bardaro: My name is katie bar daro and i'm the SVP of customer experience at sin do i'm thrilled to be joined by two experts when it comes to pay policies, first we have Nancy Roman mission.


Katie Bardaro: Now Nancy has more than 25 years of expertise in compensation design and administration.


Katie Bardaro: She has designed implemented and administered compensation programs first in house with the establishment of a $500 million retail firms first compensation Program.


Katie Bardaro: And then, as a consultant to premier clients of willis towers Watson.


Katie Bardaro: Nancy is an expert in salary structure design and implementation competitive pay analyses market assessments job documentation and job evaluation.


Katie Bardaro: In fact I just found out last week that nancy's written more than 1000 job descriptions.


Katie Bardaro: Now, most recently Nancy was leader of willis towers watson's North America, fair pay practice.


Katie Bardaro: In addition to leading engagements with clients, she has led efforts to enhance the delivery of pay equity analyses through intellectual capital and customer engagement processes.


Katie Bardaro: She was also an internal resource, as a member of willis towers watson's own North America Ind Council providing external market perspectives to willis towers Watson leadership welcome Nancy.


Katie Bardaro: Next, we have Jennifer shanker Jennifer joins us from a sauna a web and mobile application designed to help teams organized track and manage their work.


Katie Bardaro: She leads the sonic people operations total rewards and analytics team where she's focused on supporting a saunas award winning people culture.


Katie Bardaro: and furthering the company's mission to enable the world's teams to work together effortlessly.


Katie Bardaro: Prior to joining a sauna she served as the director of compensation, benefits and operations at virgin America, as well as the head of HR following the merger with Alaska airlines.

Katie Bardaro: Before joining the corporate ranks Jennifer spent more than 15 years advising clients of various size and industry and talent related issues as a consultant, with a new group and mercer Jennifer, thank you for joining us.


Katie Bardaro: Now I wouldn't be doing my job as moderator if we didn't focus on the topics that matter most to you today, so please utilize the chat or Q amp a function to let us know if there's specific areas you really want to ensure we discuss about pay policies.


Katie Bardaro: While we wait for those to come in, we thought it'd be good to really level set on terms.


Katie Bardaro: Today we'll be talking about both pay policies which are the documented rules for making pay decisions and pay practices, which are the actions that lead to pay decisions.


Katie Bardaro: Now many companies utilize both and they're not always one in the same we've listed some of the most common practices and policies on this slide.


Katie Bardaro: That we see across the organizations, we partner with us in do, but they can vary Nancy i'd love for you to share some insights about how policies and practices can vary across industry, are there any interesting patterns you'd like to call out.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Thanks katie well, I find that you know at the industry level usually what you find is there's this combination of regulatory requirements that might affect a particular industry.


Nancy Romanyshyn: As well as sort of a peer pressure, if you will, what other your competitors are doing others in your industry are doing and that all comes together and influences what employees expect.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So you find sort of this world have different expectations and that often leads to some of the variety of pay policies that we see across different industries, for example, if you have.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Heavy you know emphasis on our end in your industry you're likely to see.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Pay policies that really emphasized education certain criteria that you're meeting that you know the the research ladder is very well planned out and mapped out.

Nancy Romanyshyn: I also find that you know industries that have heavy influence of engineering, for instance, tend to have more rigor around a lot of their pay policies they really like to see things mapped out pretty clearly.

Nancy Romanyshyn: And that's another sort of emphasis that we see and then, finally, you know say retail hospitality right you're going to see more emphasis on the customer experience those types of things you're going to see programs really around rewarding.

Katie Bardaro: Great thanks Danny Nancy Jennifer let's let's talk about us on as a leading technology company what are some of the most important pay policies you consider for pay decisions and do they differ across your job functions.

Jennifer Shenker: yeah.

Jennifer Shenker: we're thinking about you know the full range of considerations how we're positioning against market how we are applying our.

Jennifer Shenker: Like differences and pay approach and strategy and they definitely very in some cases across our job functions, similar to what Nancy was talking about it's.


Jennifer Shenker: Pretty influenced by expectations in the marketplace so you know one place, for example, where we.


Jennifer Shenker: We very our approach or we're really kind of still trying to figure this out because we're not quite to that stage yet, but is NGO differential so you know we do apply GEO differentials.

Jennifer Shenker: For our various locations, but as we're growing out and expanding our sales footprint we're realizing that you know that differential and sales is a lot lower and kind of talking with.


Jennifer Shenker: with colleagues at other software companies i'm realizing that you know it's sort of a mixed bag, but you know, probably the majority of folks are using more of a national plan for their sales program so no that'd be a place where it varies.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, and to nancy's point around you know kind of engineering culture.


Jennifer Shenker: You know that's a place where we have some differentiation, not necessarily in our policies, but maybe in our practices and our approach you know the the engineering team really does like to approach things in a more more prescriptive way you know they're very.

Jennifer Shenker: They want to make sure, things are fair and done done consistently, so you know they like things like guidance around like, how do we round our numbers, you know when we when we do our.


Jennifer Shenker: Annual merit increases, whereas the rest of the organization is looking maybe in some cases for a little bit more flexibility, which makes sense because we have a lot more maybe single incumbent jobs and some of those in some of those.


Jennifer Shenker: functions versus engineering, where we got a lot of people doing the same thing, so that consistency, you know, is a bit more important.


Katie Bardaro: Great Thank you so as you just heard from our panelists how we define our policies and practices, help us determine how we're paying our employees, but they can range in terms of providing general guidance.


Katie Bardaro: Like as Nancy mentioned, maybe we pay for higher education and our R amp D function, or they could be completely formulaic like the salary model that was made famous by buffer.


Katie Bardaro: Now, depending on where your organization is on this range and, most importantly, how well your managers understand your pay policies and practices, you may be able to either easily explain observed pay gaps or you may instead find that practices could be directly causing them.


Katie Bardaro: So we as organizations, we might have beautifully designed compensation policies, but that can be meaningless if those making the decisions do not understand what could and should be driving their choices.

Katie Bardaro: anytime there's discretion, there does run a risk for bias and it turns out not all employees have top faith and their managers either.


Katie Bardaro: In a recent survey from compensation management company become more than one third of workers believe their pay is determined by what their manager feels they deserve.


Katie Bardaro: versus what is based on their performance skill set or experience so one way to understand if your policies are working against you, is run a pay equity audit, because this can help you on earth problem areas that may need correcting.


Katie Bardaro: However, a one time correction, no longer cuts it if you treat pay equity as a box ticking exercise one year and then run a repeat analysis, the next year, you might once again observe pay gaps that need remediation.


Katie Bardaro: There may be a business process that needs to be evaluated and potentially change to prevent future and equities from rearing up.


Katie Bardaro: We refer to this as a root cause analysis which brings us to a poll question that we want to ask the audience.


Katie Bardaro: Now please forgive us, as with all things remote, sometimes we run into technical issues so we're going to hopefully be pulling up a poll question that you can participate on through the zoom window.


Katie Bardaro: And through this poll question we're just curious to hear, do you perform root cause analysis as part of your pay equity study Where are you in this journey of digging into what could be driving the results that you see, year in and year out.

Katie Bardaro: So great we'll close the poll, because it looks like we're getting kind of close to full.


Katie Bardaro: And what we're seeing for For those of you who haven't yet completed a pay equity study that is totally fine everybody is in a different place in their journey but for those who have been looking into pay equity.


Katie Bardaro: We see that there are people who want to dive into root causes they haven't yet, but about a third of you want to which is great that's a large part of what we're talking about today, so let me share those results.


Katie Bardaro: So you can all see how your fellow attendees are voting.


Katie Bardaro: And now I will stop sharing.


Katie Bardaro: And i'm glad that worked so let's talk a little bit about what we're here to really dig in today our core topic pay policies.


Katie Bardaro: That we're going to have a very needy discussion with our panelists and to that point i'm going to be turning off the slides, so we can just focus in on each other and have a real conversation now.


Katie Bardaro: Our panelists, as I mentioned, they are experts and thought leaders in these fields, so if you have questions that come up that you want to hear their thoughts on please put them in the Q amp a section, which will be monitoring during the course of this discussion.


Katie Bardaro: So let's dive in.

Katie Bardaro: Nancy i'm going to start with you, I would love to hear from your perspective, what is it that makes a pay policy good and are there any bad policies that companies should avoid.


Nancy Romanyshyn: it's a great question I you know, in my opinion it's really about making sure that what you're intending to reward is what you're actually rewarding.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So I would say, you know, in my experience, compensation teams right don't purposely create a program that's going to create problems.


Nancy Romanyshyn: But that's where those bad policies come in, you know the quote bad because it's really more about unintended consequences.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So I often pick on, for example, promotional increases and the caps we sometimes see on promotional increases that's where you'll see, they will either say we're not going to.


Nancy Romanyshyn: we're going to make sure that we put say 10% on that promotional increase and what they're really emphasizing is where that.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Where what that person is actually being paid currently versus emphasizing what the job should be paid, and what ends up happening is when you do an analysis you end up having to then correct for that.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So that really can become problematic or another issue might be 10 year that we say that we pay for experience but we really don't have a great way of measuring experience we say years of service but, on the one hand, when you compare say.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know somebody that has you know, an accounting manager i'll pick on that you know that has seven years of experience versus 10 years of experience.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Well, is there really a difference between those kind of you know, accounting managers.


Nancy Romanyshyn: It we don't have a rigorous way of valuing experience what we're really talking about is qualifying experiences.


Nancy Romanyshyn: The fact that there are certain things that we expect people to be able to do over time and then they have that perspective that they can bring to their job.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So you know we we say that we pay for it, but without having a rigorous way to measure it.


Nancy Romanyshyn: we're probably really do for taking a deeper look at it and thinking of ways we can be more thoughtful and structure, a rewards programs around making sure we're rewarding for the types of experiences that really have value.


Katie Bardaro: Great thanks Nancy Jennifer i'd like to turn it to your experience of the sauna What would you like to share, about your experience designing pay policies as it pertains to this concept of good or bad.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah, from my perspective, you know a good policy is something that supports the business and supports you know our our ultimate goals a bad policy is something that sort of gets in gets in the way of of supporting our mission.


Jennifer Shenker: And you know when I think about this phase that we're in which is really fast growth, you know we're you know we've.


Jennifer Shenker: been doubling tripling you know the size of our population in the last couple of years.


Jennifer Shenker: We you know we kind of approach things with them is more almost in many cases is more of a guideline, so we want to kind of get ahead of you know kind of the Wild West mentality of just trying to you know do what you need to do to get.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, to meet the businesses like really evolving needs so we want to get ahead of that, but at the same time we don't want to hamstring you know our growth and our leadership, so you know we we often try to come come out with guidelines.


Jennifer Shenker: And we can have convert you know so things are present presented as we generally do this or we you know we mostly do this, and sometimes there's conversations about why a practice might might need to vary from from that guideline.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, I was talking with a colleague at another fast growing tech company, the other day and and they they are take a similar approach where they.


Jennifer Shenker: They have policies, but they have clear exception processes, and you know their their observation of those exception processes was.


Jennifer Shenker: That you know 99% of the time, the policy is followed, but the exception, having the opportunity to ask for an exception.


Jennifer Shenker: allows you to have a dialogue with that manager or leader and explain to them.


Jennifer Shenker: Why, you know when someone's moving from one job to the next you're making an adjustment and pay, you know, even though it might not feel fair to the employee when you kind of.


Jennifer Shenker: lay out well actually when you look at this person relative to other people in that location that's where the fairness comes up.


Jennifer Shenker: Then the Leader can kind of you know, ultimately, understand and make the right decision to say yes okay that that adjustment makes sense, so that that's sort of the approach that we've taken is try to be flexible, you know present some flexibility.


Jennifer Shenker: As needed for your organization if you're more mature, you may not need that but, like you know, certainly a fast growing companies often needs that flexibility.


Jennifer Shenker: But to do it in a way that that still you know ensures that you're having the right conversations about what are you trying to achieve and what is fair and what ultimately you know, is going to prevent a problem down the road.


Katie Bardaro: Great Thank you, we had a question come in from the audience, will you two were talking, which is asking what's a reasonable time cycle for conducting company wide pay audits annually every two years.


Katie Bardaro: Based on industry best practice so i'll answer from our perspective and then we'd love to hear from your from YouTube so.


Katie Bardaro: In terms of thinking about best practice for your pay equity audit, we recommend that the more frequent the better, but you actually should think about it and kind of two different use cases.


Katie Bardaro: First, you might have your end to end pay equity analysis for purposes of remediation.


Katie Bardaro: Then you, we would have what we call our diagnostic pay equity analyses those where you're really digging into various hypotheses, you have questions that you want to answer or business changes that are happening an m&a frequent hiring.


Katie Bardaro: large scale reorganization any one of those could affect your pay equity status so by reviewing pay equity as part of those regular business processes, it just sets your your organization up for success.


Katie Bardaro: But Jennifer i'd love to hear from you as a as an organization, who looks at pay equity, what would your recommendation be.


Jennifer Shenker: Well, in our organization again because we're really fast moving and we find because we're growing people's roles and responsibilities and accountabilities can change really rapidly we actually look at compensation twice a year.


Jennifer Shenker: For for employees to ensure that pay is sort of keeping pace with with some individuals impact and so we're looking at pay our pay equity, along with both of those cycles.


Jennifer Shenker: You know our ideal goal is to also look at it.


Jennifer Shenker: It is really to look at a quarterly so you know, as you mentioned K, to be be looking at it on the.


Jennifer Shenker: You know the off cycles, we were looking at it more from a diagnostic or just a monitoring standpoint again because we're bringing a lot of new people in so the numbers can change pretty rapidly.


Jennifer Shenker: But we're at least going to look at it twice a year and remediate twice a year, just to ensure that you know we're keeping keeping pace with the change that's happening.


Katie Bardaro: Great and Nancy i'd love to hear from your perspective of of all of the clients that you worked with kind of what did you tend to see and then what was your advice to them.


Nancy Romanyshyn: yeah as similar sort of cadence right usually say once a year that's usually the typical.

Nancy Romanyshyn: And I would say it's typically in line with their married increase cycle, so you know typically you know.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Our you know clients would be preparing right, and they want to inform the merit increase cycle, with their you know pay equity work from doing the analysis.


Nancy Romanyshyn: But you know Jennifer I really loved your answer about sort of the.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know here's what we're doing and then here's the aspiration, because I think what what it sounds like you're doing is exactly where we really see this headed, so we saying once a year, for example, two years ago that was like.


Nancy Romanyshyn: once a year, you know what are you talking about you know once every two years right, I feel like you know we're on this fast moving train right to.


Nancy Romanyshyn: shifting our mindset from this audit and this retrospective to more of a prospective view and a preventative view and I think that's where you're seeing, and I think katie you you nailed it to around use case right like.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know it's there's about the compensation events that we have, so how often can we address those compensation events and do analyses in anticipation of that.

Nancy Romanyshyn: But there's the diagnostic work that we can be doing as well, and I think what companies are doing is they're scaling up slowly.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And maybe chungking it out even so maybe they're focusing now on certain segments of the population that are higher growth, for example than others.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Those types of doing those types of activities but thinking about ways that they've they're really embedding it in their compensation calendar in a way that we do other compensation processes like benchmarking so similar type of cadence.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Great thanks Nancy.


Katie Bardaro: OK let's continue on in our discussion we mentioned earlier that pay policies and equity do go hand in hand, but how do we ensure our policies are fair.


Katie Bardaro: So Nancy turning to you again I just curious, what do you think is the best practice for ensuring your pay policies are fair and equitable What would you recommend.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I think it goes to sort of that that diagnostic embedding sort of these diagnostics in your compensation cycle so kind of building off what I was saying, around.


Nancy Romanyshyn: For instance, you know, I was working with a company where.


Nancy Romanyshyn: We talked about just simply they already were doing same market pricing exercise across different job families during different times of year.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Again, because they're a small team right they have limited resources, and then we discussed well you know you can also be doing that pay equity analysis as well.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And just embed that as part of that analytical process to look across several different dimensions right how we're paying how you know how look at position and range look at.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know, different elements performance ratings analysis, so I think.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know I see this movement toward the more data we have, the more we can use to them really inform the way you know our compensation programs and designs.


Nancy Romanyshyn: and refine them to again go back going back to kind of the original question right katie you know let's make sure that you're rewarding.


Nancy Romanyshyn: What you you've intended, so I think it's it's just coming up with the right cadence of those types of diagnostic analyses and letting the data lead you to what you really need to be doing.


Katie Bardaro: Great Jennifer What would you add based on your experiences at a sauna.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah I think I think at a sauna we think about this a lot we and and there's, especially as we're growing we're.


Jennifer Shenker: really trying to find the right, the right balance between having a kind of simple repeatable scalable processes and and and also kind of making sure that we have enough opportunities to.


Jennifer Shenker: Correct address you know, ensure that COMP is kind of keeping pace with people's impact, so you know there's been.


Jennifer Shenker: i'll give you an example of you know something that's been a top of mind conversation of like eligibility so when should someone who, a new hire become eligible for a merit or equity increase it historically we've said.


Jennifer Shenker: we're not going to have any eligibility requirements, because you know we may have we may have brought somebody in based on an interview and and they may actually be performing.

Jennifer Shenker: Much much, much higher level than we realized, and we don't want to have you know you know, a six or 12 month.


Jennifer Shenker: kind of eligibility requirement that would then keep them even further behind you know, potentially, where they should be so that that's been something that's been a conversation and.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, just as we grow and scale though it's harder because there's you know more and more people who may be, you know, want to give an increase that six months that that probably shouldn't and it's kind of it's easier to say No six know increases until you've had at least six months.


Jennifer Shenker: of service, and so you know we're we we've decided to kind of keep the more complex, you know kind of no, no, no eligibility requirements, but it.


Jennifer Shenker: does require more coaching and more training and more like the normal is this, but we allow for this, because of these reasons, and this is how you want to use that so.


Jennifer Shenker: So that's an example of kind of a policy or practice that could sometimes get in the way of pay, equity, you know other things that we we look at.

Jennifer Shenker: A rebound looking at are like things around how people are brought in the organization so exception requests, you know, when what how many exceptions to reprove approve that are outside of our bands.


Jennifer Shenker: or when are we using sign on bonuses, something that would be.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, is not necessarily always part of our regular pay equity analysis but but definitely could you know could create an equities in the organization so using you know, using our analytics look at that.

Jennifer Shenker: promo rates is another another case where were you know, looking at that closely because it's just so so.


Jennifer Shenker: Connected to pay, you know is how fairly are we promoting people and looking at those trends from level to level and across different functions and where where we see maybe.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, like places in the organization where there's sort of a.


Jennifer Shenker: Maybe a gap or a disparity is it is it early in career, or is it kind of later and career and what might be the cause of that what are the kind of the standards that are being applied that might be, you know.


Jennifer Shenker: impacts different races and ethnicities or genders differently so we've been doing a lot of analysis behind the scenes to really get to those those driving factors that influence pay.


Katie Bardaro: yeah that's great and something you brought up I think is important to Double Click on for our audience, which is level.


Katie Bardaro: So we get asked this question a lot as we're working with our clients and pay equity analyses, is how should we consider level, because as an organization they might believe level is their biggest driver of pay.


Katie Bardaro: But when it comes down to it, if there's any discretion and how those levels are assigned or determined, as I mentioned earlier, you run that risk for bias, it could be having a disproportionate effect on one gender or race and ethnicity over another.


Katie Bardaro: So would love to hear from you, to your perspective on kind of level and how organizations should be thinking about defining them designing them and applying them.


Katie Bardaro: Nancy would you like to go first.

Nancy Romanyshyn: yeah I mean it's so.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know your job architecture right and how you're getting to those levels, I agree katie is critical, so you know, having some kind of rigorous job evaluation methodology.


Nancy Romanyshyn: That is something that you know nobody's doing sort of off on their own right, or just as you said, non discretionary that becomes really critical having sort of the spy in that either these objective.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Factors on which we're relying in order to level jobs, and I agree right if you don't really have that rigor behind that then it does really.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Create issues for you, and it does question, then why do we have people at certain levels in the organization, is it really consistent with our pay philosophy.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know what we're looking to do and it creates all sorts of problems around mobility, in addition to, of course, pay equity.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So those I agree that it's I think it's important to you know really each of the factors right that you're bringing in each of those controls that you're saying.


Nancy Romanyshyn: This is going to mean that people are doing similar work I think it's important to pressure test them.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And then build in you know Jennifer it sounds like what a lot of what you're doing is exactly that right like building in some of those analytics to kind of to make sure.


Nancy Romanyshyn: That we have rigor you know around how we've created this framework of how we're rewarding I think that's that's really critical.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Great.


Katie Bardaro: Thanks Nancy Jennifer What would you like to add.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah i'll just share a couple of observations from our last study and how we approached it so you know we were definitely.


Jennifer Shenker: One of those companies that said, you know we have a level based compensation system, our salary ranges are based on level.


Jennifer Shenker: And and job function, so we felt like it was it leaving it out completely and our analysis.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, resulted in a pack equity model that would just not as prescriptive and we were we were worried that actually it would.


Jennifer Shenker: It would, maybe mask potential and equity, so we felt that the left, you know leveling had to be kind of some component of it, but we ended up looking at level and a couple different ways.


Jennifer Shenker: We did use level in the model, but we also we also then group levels together, so we said Okay, maybe there's some you know squishing us between.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, for us, for us, our three is like our entry level so three and four, maybe there's some squishing us there so let's put those together and consider that one group, and then you know kind of our mid career or career levels let's push.


Jennifer Shenker: put those together and look at those as a single group so we analyze the data in a couple different ways, and then we you know we are augmenting that with also looking at.

Jennifer Shenker: You know, pro you know things time to promo promo rates by level.


Jennifer Shenker: we're augmenting it with kind of some additional analysis to understand if there are you know discrepancies and how we are actually a promo promo and people but it's definitely.


Jennifer Shenker: A point of conversation, a point, probably the biggest point, at least in talking with our employees, the biggest concern that they have is you know, am I leveled fairly and it is kind of the it is one of the toughest things to get right to because.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, we found you know, the more we put out about leveling and our leveling framework, you know.


Jennifer Shenker: The more questions you get because really it leveling is hard like it is not something that like we expect every manager or employee to be enabled in in like figuring out, you know job evaluation as.


Jennifer Shenker: He was describing so there's there's got to be the right, the right balance, but I think doing some of this this behind the scenes analyses and I know we're gonna talk a little bit later about transparency but sharing that out can kind of.


Jennifer Shenker: Maybe help people feel a little more comfortable with the process, even if they you know, even if they're not experts and kind of understanding the leveling process.


Katie Bardaro: Great Thank you we had another question come in from the audience really under trying to understand the different.


Katie Bardaro: playing fields for negotiation, so if there are different people who negotiate and maybe more strongly upon offer our pond promotion, how do we create a level playing field in that situation, are there any any lessons that you would like to share with the audience.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I mean, I can start and Jennifer definitely obviously happen.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know I find.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Again there's you know so i'm coming at it from a compensation point of view so forgive me.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I tend to think of the value of the job right and then really you know just being making sure that you're that is paramount in terms of how you're valuing that role.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And then, setting up some guard rails around that for negotiation purposes, so I think I think the the challenge comes you know Jennifer like you're talking about faster growing organizations, but even then I would what I would say is.


Nancy Romanyshyn: really looking critically at the types of roles that are open for negotiation, potentially, so you know systems developers like that might be a different level than, say, you know.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know, a finance role or you know things where the talent isn't as critical, so I think you really need to kind of.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Do this prioritization as an organization that's usually what I see successful organizations handling that in terms of let's first put some guard rails around what's up for negotiation.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Where and then how much do we negotiate and When does it become to a point, like I don't care, you could be a rock star.


Nancy Romanyshyn: In Ob just we can't afford to pay you, you know head and shoulders above the rest of the team that's not in sync with our philosophy and the culture that we're trying to build here but Jennifer I don't know if you have any sort of examples.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah just exactly what you know come very similar to what you said, like really understanding the role of different paid components so.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, we have we take a very.


Jennifer Shenker: kind of firm position on on negotiation we don't want to reward negotiations so.


Jennifer Shenker: But, but we do also you know, want to get talent in We understand that people are coming from different places and different different different spaces and bring oftentimes bring different skills and experience.


Jennifer Shenker: to bear, so you know, the first thing that we do is we have people independently assess you know all candidates and we have an idea, before we start the negotiation process, we have an idea of what we think is a fair fair pay based on our assessment of that of that candidate.


Jennifer Shenker: If they are there and then we kind of have a conversation about expectations if their expectations are lower than that.


Jennifer Shenker: We would automatically bring them up to that level, so we would never we would never pay less than what we had said we should pay for this person based on how we assess them.


Jennifer Shenker: When you have someone whose expectations are a lot higher that's when you get into kind of the conversation about you know understanding what should we do if it's.


Jennifer Shenker: If it's in really understanding is this person bringing skills to the table that are that are like highly critical there's a high likelihood that they're going to grow into it, you know.


Jennifer Shenker: kind of a next level role very rapidly there's there's kind of some criteria that needs to be met for us to flex a bit on on our ranges and we do it very seldomly.


Jennifer Shenker: And we also kind of would use that sign on components in some cases, so we might we might say.


Jennifer Shenker: You know someone's leaving a ton of equity on the table at another organization or they have.


Jennifer Shenker: You know they have three count, you know we see this a lot with our technical talent, they have three counter offers you know that we that are really clear.


Jennifer Shenker: Now we might we might FLEX on our pay on a sign on to kind of get them over the finish line, but we don't want to necessarily build that into the ongoing.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, pay expectations, because that's when we're you know we're setting up you know future pay that's that's that's an equitable that we're going to have to resolve so so Those are the things that we think about.

Katie Bardaro: So one of the things that I would like to share just from some of the experience we had with some of our clients, as it pertains to starting pay is you're absolutely right that the.


Katie Bardaro: market could be driving something that might not be aligned with your philosophy or your strategy around equity, so a large part of what we talk through with our clients is.


Katie Bardaro: What sort of communication style you having are you framing it in that way with your candidates, because that might have a different story for those who are negotiating versus those you're not framing it in that way.


Katie Bardaro: As we know, many employees are really fairness based and they and they can get behind a fairness based initiative, more so than a will that's outside of our compensation range so something to think about for for some of those communications.


Katie Bardaro: Another question that came in from the audience is around education so Nancy you had mentioned education in the R amp D role.


Katie Bardaro: And there's a question that says, well, what about how education relates to experience so if you have someone with maybe lower education but higher experience, how do you think about that person versus someone who has less experience in higher education.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Again, I think it really comes down to thinking critically about the role and I, and I, and I feel like a lot of sort of the theme, maybe the takeaway today is think about with compensation this movement toward.


Nancy Romanyshyn: job and role versus say person, and then I think if you have that lens that you're looking through that will help you filter and prioritize those things so, for example.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Education that's one of the reasons why I think you know historically when i've implemented salary frameworks.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know i've really tried to stay away from language that says, you know must have certain amount of experience or honestly katie on those thousand job descriptions.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know staying away from the those types of you know, hard and fast criteria, because how many times do we know people who.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Absolutely bring qualifying experiences that are so much more valuable than, say, a degree that they're not potentially applying, so I think.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Now, when you're trying to put that all into say a machine readable format, so that you can analyze it and to pay equity analysis.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Obviously there's some challenges, but I think they're to you really have to think about the role.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And what is the value of certain experiences and education for that specific role, so I often joke that you know, but for certain roles like if you're a surgeon.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And you know you have 20 years of experience that, yes, that's definitely going to differentiate you in a way versus say again my accounting manager.


Nancy Romanyshyn: If I think about 20 years of experience versus 10 years of experience um it's not as critical there.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Or if I know that they have specific degree unless it's because I need that specific skill set and the only way to attain that skill set is through that degree.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So, and I, and again, those are you know as we reflect on it right, as we think about jobs it's there aren't that many jobs that require.


Nancy Romanyshyn: That specific degree or certification in order to do that job there definitely are but there aren't that many, so I think that's where you have to really kind of balance it and think through what makes sense.


Nancy Romanyshyn: For you as an organization using sort of that lens of what is the job really require.


Katie Bardaro: Great thanks Nancy well, I want to move on to our next question because we're getting a number of questions coming in through the Q amp a related to this, so.


Katie Bardaro: I, it goes without saying we're an unprecedented time with the current pandemic and many of the clients that you were working with and i'm sure you yourselves are either working with or acting upon are.


Katie Bardaro: redesigning pay policies to account for the changes that have been brought on by the ongoing pandemic and the prevalence of remote work.


Katie Bardaro: So Jennifer i'd like to start with you and and try and understand what are new challenges that you're facing as you're defining your pay policies with coven.


Katie Bardaro: And the remote work prevalence and kind of how are you thinking about that and, specifically, you mentioned earlier on about work location, because we have some questions coming in around how to think about work location when it comes to designing compensation policies.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah i'll share a little bit about a sauna but i'll also share kind of what i'm hearing with my peers, because this is definitely the hottest topic.


Jennifer Shenker: That that folks are talking about, and you know for a sauna where we have like we were one we're probably in the minority and saying that we are going to be an office first culture so we've we've sort of.


Jennifer Shenker: decided that that's going to be our approach and we've been really upfront with employees and certainly some employees don't like that, and we expect some people will will maybe maybe move on to an organization, where they can work remote but.


Jennifer Shenker: we've decided that we feel like working in an office together is is will get us further our mission more, and so we you know our approach has really been.


Jennifer Shenker: based in that in that kind of broader philosophical position, we still will have some remote employees, but we expect it to be a very small percentage of the population and we're taking a you know, a pretty.


Jennifer Shenker: i'd say traditional approach to God differentials where we'll have we have three different zones and we kind of will will look at locate you know remote locations, as they come up and place them in the zone, based on what you know what is reasonable.


Jennifer Shenker: we're in we're applying playing the differential on both.


Jennifer Shenker: bass and equity because that's that's another big conversation what I hear from peers, though, that are going either with a hybrid.


Jennifer Shenker: approach or a fully remote approach is they're thinking about this, you know much more intently because it's they're gonna have a much bigger population in that in that bucket.


Jennifer Shenker: The vast majority of them are definitely still looking at GEO differentials.


Jennifer Shenker: And, and I think the reason is really market driven you know one one thing that we've at least thought about is.


Jennifer Shenker: OK, we can pay up, we could pay everybody equally and there there certainly is a you know I think there's an argument to say well.


Jennifer Shenker: Equal pay for equal work, really, you know could be mean you are paid the exact same thing for the same work and that's how many employees view it, but the challenge that comes up with, that is if you're overpaying in certain markets, then that can create some really.


Jennifer Shenker: Some difficult dynamics like.


Jennifer Shenker: People who are no longer engaged with the company will stay forever because they really can't they can't work anywhere else you know their their their their pay is so high.

Jennifer Shenker: You know, an out of market so that's you know that's something that we think about is like the unintended consequences of.


Jennifer Shenker: Of kind of going to that one one size fits all approach and.


Jennifer Shenker: In my experience, most companies are not doing that the things that they're thinking about instead they're still thinking about GEO differentials what they are thinking about, though, is like.


Jennifer Shenker: How do we, how do we set this up, should it be by zip codes, should it be by you know distance from a metro area, you know they're kind of thinking through the pros and cons of those sorts of things and how to how to get the right balance.


Jennifer Shenker: Between accuracy and complexity and they're also thinking about you know cash versus equity and whether there should be a you know, a different approach there.


Jennifer Shenker: there's a lot of conversation about how do differentials are applied differently by job function, or by by level in the organization there certainly is.

Jennifer Shenker: You know, sometimes we'll see GEO differentials that are different like entry level roles versus more senior talent and so you know kind of not doing a you know peanut butter approach for really tailoring it to the specific job and location.

Jennifer Shenker: So I think people are trying to get much more tailored well in my experience, getting much more tail tailored and thoughtful about their approach now that they're going to have a lot more.


Jennifer Shenker: Of the population remote.


Katie Bardaro: Great thanks to him for an anti i'd love to hear it from your perspective as well, tied to the pandemic remote work but also we had a question come in about hazard pay and how our organizations thinking about hazard pay in this current environment as well.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Now the that's an excellent question yeah I think I think it goes back to i'm going to sound like a broken record what are you looking really to reward right.


Nancy Romanyshyn: What makes sense for your organization so so on with hazard pay.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I think you know right that's highly dependent on where people are working, the environment in which they're working the job that you need them to do the scale of the even the population that you need to do what it is that they're doing.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So I think about people in certain environments where whether it's a you know warehouse distribution Center type environment, and you know we're asking a lot of people to come together.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know what makes sense, how do I help, first and foremost right my employees feel safe to come to work to do a good job.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Those are things that I think the pandemic has really sort of blown the lid off of in terms of who's our truly our most valuable worker right.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And it's amazing because oftentimes we know the pandemic affected a lot of our lowest paid workers are most typically diverse segment of the workforce and.


Nancy Romanyshyn: they've become you know we've elevated them in terms of value so.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Again, I think it really becomes that there's a lot of reflection right that has been going on about how do we address it, I think, to jennifer's point.


Nancy Romanyshyn: There is no one size fits all I think that's what's really important, so I would say, you know, for many years we've designed pay programs to kind of be the peanut butter a bit right to kind of.


Nancy Romanyshyn: let's group and organize most of our you know employee population, but we have technology now to enable us to segment and look at our populations and manage them in ways that we weren't able to.


Nancy Romanyshyn: In years past, so I think we need to leverage more of that than it even in the case of hazard pay right I think it's really thinking through.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know how do we throw our PE programs and other employee engagement strategy right, how do we make sure that those workers, you know that they're valued that they're safe to come to work.


Nancy Romanyshyn: The geographic differential conversation is fascinating so Jennifer what you described, I think, is what i've seen for years, you know for many organizations, it was it has been sort of this mixed bag.


Nancy Romanyshyn: of how they've been addressing it, you know, and I think that the proud of me in terms of how we're approaching this now, you know, in the pandemic era.


Nancy Romanyshyn: is I think worth considering, because of the the rise of you know, remote work, and I know you know Jennifer your company right making a different philosophical decision but it's good.


Nancy Romanyshyn: But with the rise of remote work I think we're also finding it's an expansion of the talent pool.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And there's an opportunity right to pull in talent that we haven't you know that hasn't had access right to some of our roles before so again, though I think it's it can't be a one size fits all and I think that's been the struggle.


Nancy Romanyshyn: When companies have tried to address it it's okay to segment your workforce and to say that there are certain roles that we are okay with doing this and there are other roles that we are not.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And and it's because this is our business, and this is our philosophy as a business, I think, the more you can tie to that it makes it easier than for you to make those decisions and to.


Nancy Romanyshyn: communicate them to your employees and be more transparent about why you're choosing to do what you're doing.

Jennifer Shenker: yeah and the only other point i'd add on that is I you know I think we all think that the market.


Jennifer Shenker: is very dynamic right now, like we don't really know what it's what what the workforce is going to look like.


Jennifer Shenker: Five years from now it's a little hard you know we.

Jennifer Shenker: it's pretty clear that probably more remote work will happen in the future that this that this particular incident is definitely going to be leading to that, but to what extent it's not clear on what that impact is going to have on.


Jennifer Shenker: Pay practices converging or or not, so you know I think the other thing is whatever whatever you decide like be willing to.


Jennifer Shenker: Look at it frequently and making you know, ensure that it continues to meet the needs of the business and and you know be prepared to make adjustments along the along the way, as well.


Katie Bardaro: Great thanks both so let's move on to our next discussion point because I see a number of questions coming in that are related to this topic of transparency and communication so.


Katie Bardaro: We know it's more and more common for employees to really be seeking out information from their organizations about pay how pay is determined how their pay is comparable to others.


Katie Bardaro: We see some who are creating Google docs where they're just sharing their pay, you know with everybody, others are starting slack channels to discuss with their peers.


Katie Bardaro: How compensation looks like for them so really, the question is, you know how should organizations to be thinking about creating a narrative or sharing information in this kind of.


Katie Bardaro: Transparency driven world so Jennifer i'd love to turn to you and see how is your organization communicated pay policies with your employees and do you have any advice for others who are starting out on this journey.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah I think it's um it's something that my advice would be to be, you know as thoughtful as possible about it, I think that you know, I think, for many of us.


Jennifer Shenker: or for me at least i'll just speak for myself personally, I see transparency as sort of a really.


Jennifer Shenker: Nice goal, you know it's a really it's a it does feel like a like a like a something to aspire to, and it is something that I aspire to as a as a compensation professional, I think that you should be able to explain pay decisions and, like you know.


Jennifer Shenker: In a way, that's clear and defensible at the same time, I think there is, you have to kind of manage that, with the reality on the on the ground and what your.

Jennifer Shenker: capacity is as as an organization and and so, for example, for for a sauna again moving very rapidly, you know, adding so many news, you know we've had we add you know hundreds of jobs every year because we're just growing so quickly.


Jennifer Shenker: We are evolving our pay practices, because we're moving from being you know startup kind of heavy equity based to more cash driven so we're very dynamic and how we're managing our pay we're kind of in a very significant transition phase.


Jennifer Shenker: Because of all those all of those reasons.


Jennifer Shenker: it's not the right time for us right now to go transparent with our pay ranges they are just changing too much in the in the education, the amount of education that we would need to invest in in sort of keeping people a prize.


Jennifer Shenker: It would not be worth it, I think it'd be distracting for the business to do it, and nor does my team have the capacity to do that, so you know we've we've decided that you know we're not going to be transparent, right now, with our with our pay ranges.


Jennifer Shenker: Not to say that we don't want to somewhere down the road when things get stabilized a bit more, but.


Jennifer Shenker: Instead of doing that, we are kind of being much more transparent, with, for example, our equity study, so we did you know we shared a lot of details.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, probably for many people do many details around our pay equity said, because it is quite probably understand all of the work but.

Jennifer Shenker: But we want it to be really transparent to say you know we're not.


Jennifer Shenker: we're not sharing these these these pay ranges there to dynamic we don't feel like we have the ability to to support that that that transparency right now.

Jennifer Shenker: But we do feel like fairness is so important that we are doing, you know these things behind the scenes and here's sort of a you know, a view into what that type of work looks like.


Jennifer Shenker: You know, down to you know decisions like what controls, did we select you know we gave a lot of details in our pay equity study and had you know really robust conversations.


Jennifer Shenker: With employees about that, which are leading to more robust conversations about things like what's you know, can we be more transparent about some of the promo you know analyses that we're doing etc so we're you know we're we're kind of taking taking.


Jennifer Shenker: steps to kind of show the work that we're doing to ensure fairness so being really transparent on that front, while not necessarily going all the way to showing range transparency today so that's that's where we're landing on that continuum.


Katie Bardaro: Great Nancy before I turn to you, we actually.


Katie Bardaro: had some questions come in as you were speaking Jennifer one specifically around equity, so you had mentioned earlier.


Katie Bardaro: Thinking through equity if your pay equity strategy so just want to share with the audience, we did do an episode or episode five and equity i'll drop a link to that in the chat so you all can.


Katie Bardaro: Listen to the recording but we'd love to hear from asanas perspective, how are you thinking about equity for the inclusion and your pay equity study.


Jennifer Shenker: yeah so we.


Jennifer Shenker: We take a total compensation approach to to pay in general, so we definitely felt like we had to include equity in our pace pace study.


Jennifer Shenker: So instead of looking at base and looking at equity we looked at a total COMP figure.


Jennifer Shenker: We are also evolving a bit how we've looked at pay, because you know, coming from a you know pre ipo company to now we're we're publicly traded, we have a you know valuation for our equity.


Jennifer Shenker: We sort of shifted how we're thinking about equity as well, so we.


Jennifer Shenker: We now we're using kind of like a like an intended value so what's the intended value on the you know when we.


Jennifer Shenker: Make the display decision so when someone gets an offer letter or when, during our marriage cycles, what is the intended value it might be a little different than the than the.


Jennifer Shenker: You know the gap accounting value because that's based on you know the date that something's actual actually granted so we're using that value.


Jennifer Shenker: For multi year grants, we are analyzing so you know our new hire grants, which are intended to kind of deliver more over a longer time period we're analyzing we're looking at kind of the value intended in the first year.


Jennifer Shenker: But we also we did the analysis sort of in a couple different ways we also looked at just to ensure that we that we kind of captured that you know what's happened, while we were you know.


Jennifer Shenker: While we were you know pre ipo and equity was such a huge component, we also looked at.


Jennifer Shenker: Cash plus a next 12 month vesting value so that kind of took into account all of our historical value we're not planning to use that going forward, but we felt like for our first.


Jennifer Shenker: Packwood study and we'll probably do it, maybe for the next one as well, we felt that was an important lens just to make sure there wasn't kind of historical bias in our equity practices, because it is such a big piece of compensation for the organization.


Jennifer Shenker: Great.


Katie Bardaro: Thank you so Nancy let's turn it over to you and go back to the topic of transparency i'd love to hear from you what are your predictions for transparency as it relates to pay over the next one to five years and, and how can organizations best prepared today.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know I think it's funny just sort of a reflection jennifer's I was listening to you talk, I mean you're.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I know you're saying that you're not ready to educate but you're already educating right your employees a lot and what you did was you use the topic of pay equity.


Nancy Romanyshyn: But I think that's still about paying, and I think it really so you know my prediction is.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Your everybody has to be prepared to have to be able to tell their pace story in whatever manner makes sense for them so unfortunately right, we know that there's no sort of set playbook.


Nancy Romanyshyn: We have you know we can see best practices, we see, but a lot of times what we're seeing out there, the most vocal companies typically have been doing say pay equity analysis they've been sort of pairing right.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Their House before they're inviting everybody to the party, if you will.

Nancy Romanyshyn: So I think there's a lot of you know a lot of that kind of has to to happen, you have to kind of get your house in order, but at the same time, I think it's really about thinking.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know who are we as an organization, what is our business what are our business goals and then, how do we marry that to the story of the employee experience.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know what do our employees, what do we want them to think about the way we pay.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I think you answer that and then that starts to then dictate for you, well then, what do we need to tell them in order for them to think that I mean really kind of simple right but, and it may begin.


Nancy Romanyshyn: As a more aggregate story, a more general story that, then you can turn to and speak to and sort of flush out over time.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I think the important thing is, you need to be talking to your employees, you need to be engaging them and you need to sense from them, whether it's you doing diagnostics in your pay programs, to make sure that you're rewarding what you intend.


Nancy Romanyshyn: As well as employee listening listening to what they think about how you reward what they think about their employee experience I think those things are really important.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Because then that's going to help you know where you prioritize your resources and and where you go out to them, sometimes the messages are simple right there and they're not overly complex i've also seen.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Some of my former clients they've done things where they've just hooked up with their marketing folks.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And they've said let's you know I joke, you know as a person who's designed compensation programs I don't pretend to be really great at communicating.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So you know, sometimes it's really helpful to have people with that can bring that skill set you know real communicators and marketing.

Nancy Romanyshyn: Skills where you can say I need to do an internal campaign with the employees, I want to make sure that they know that we pay people fairly.


Nancy Romanyshyn: That you know the reason why this person sitting next to me is paid differently, is because of X, Y amp Z and that's okay that's part of our culture it's driving our business, and you know.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Those filling in sort of those gaps for employees, I think, is really important, but you have to go at your own pace.


Katie Bardaro: Great thanks Nancy another question came in from the audience around what do you do when your Executive management is quote unquote old school.


Katie Bardaro: They don't necessarily agree with looking at a pay equity analysis they don't necessarily agree with the themes of transparency, they have a perception about how pay should be turned determine and it's their way based off their.


Katie Bardaro: position kind of what is your advice and thinking through kind of bringing them along on this journey.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I mean, I can begin in Jennifer i'd be interested in some you know you probably haven't had these experiences, but I know when I have helped.


Nancy Romanyshyn: it's not uncommon number one and yeah we're we you know we're in an era where things are changing so rapidly that oftentimes our boards our executives in the C suite.


Nancy Romanyshyn: are accustomed to seeing things a certain way, and it does require you to educate them, so what I would say, is it as much as you can bring data to them data points.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know, often there's so much literature out there there's so many reports and great webinars like this one, you know that you can reference and pull in to help educate.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And I think it's important to bring some of those key data points to them.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Not necessarily hey you know our competitor over there is doing this, so we should do that too it's not about that it's more about explaining how dynamic this conversation is.


Nancy Romanyshyn: what's coming often you know my my clients have used things like legislation to say you know listen we're we're living in an era where legislation is continuing to change and expand.


Nancy Romanyshyn: and transparency is only going to increase, so we need to take some steps as an organization to ensure that we are ahead of that curve.


Nancy Romanyshyn: And, here are some of the ideas I have around that right so though those and I find that you know the the board executives they're very receptive to that because they are seeing it to.


Nancy Romanyshyn: You know, human capital metrics are things that are more and more.


Nancy Romanyshyn: discussed being brought into the conversation, so I think if you can tie sort of the pace story and the things you're trying to do.


Nancy Romanyshyn: In the diagnostics of pay to that that really I think that'll start to connect the dots for them and you're you're bringing them along sort of in that education.


Jennifer Shenker: i'll just plus one that and say you know I think the legal team can be a good partner on this as well, because you know, there really are.


Jennifer Shenker: significant risks associated with not looking at at least at the pay equity component, so I think they you know that can be a good partner.


Jennifer Shenker: And you know I found at least at a sauna our board is really engaged on this topic, they want to hear about the pay equity work that we're doing.


Jennifer Shenker: So I think that more and more boards are realizing, this is an important part of their charge, and you know if you can bring your executives all along to get ahead of that then that that that will be something that will be a value to them for sure.


Katie Bardaro: Sorry, is on mute sorry thanks both just wanted to turn to probably what will be our final question that's me do that i'm just going to share my screen to pitch our next episode of the fairness at work series.


Katie Bardaro: which will be about what to do when your employee does perceive a pay and equity and so a lot of these questions around this communication and how we message pay equity how we think about it.


Katie Bardaro: To our leadership to our boards, but what about your employees and how do you address that so that'll be happening on march 23 and.

Katie Bardaro: But for a final question and i'll turn to you first Jennifer it, we have a question that comes in, about we don't have any defined compensation philosophy or policies and we're a small relatively small.


Katie Bardaro: HR team, which is true for many organizations actually regardless of size so would love to hear your advice about what is the first step, they should take today to kind of get to the place where you are at a sauna.


Jennifer Shenker: I would say, the first step would be to think about your implied philosophy, because even though, even if you say you don't have a defined philosophy, you probably have implied practices, you have you have ways that you've been doing things.


Jennifer Shenker: and trying to capture that as your starting point, I think, is is is really the best  

Jennifer Shenker: Do you segment, you know how do you can you know use market data like capture all of that.


Jennifer Shenker: and see if you can kind of turn that into a philosophy and you may during that process find hey I don't we're doing this in a certain way that doesn't feel right, and this is, this is a piece, that we need to change, you know so that can kind of become your.


Jennifer Shenker: Your you know your North star, for your your your aspiring philosophy and then you can figure out how to how to shift your your transition your practices that way but writing down what you're doing today is definitely best best place to start.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I was gonna say the exact same thing.


Nancy Romanyshyn: So 100% you you're doing something you're paying people right so and I think it's that and then I think to Jennifer you know I think it's also write about marrying it to your mission.


Nancy Romanyshyn: As an organization your your business plan you know your goals as an organization and so seeing, so I think it's.


Nancy Romanyshyn: I think that's brilliant the way you were putting it Jennifer right it's almost like doing a gap analysis to say you know what are we doing today.


Nancy Romanyshyn: Does that foot with what we're meaning to do and then right what are now the things that if we're if there are gaps how what How should we prioritize those to close those gaps to make sure that we're doing you know what is in line with our philosophies and organization.

Katie Bardaro: Great thanks both this has been a really informative panel, hopefully, all of you got your questions answered I know we didn't get through to everything.